If Tim Duncan Wins a 6th Ring This Year, Will We Finally Admit.....
- Thread starter Archangel
- Start date
THIS.
Either the best player can win a ring on his own, and the "RINGZ!1!" guys mean something...or he needs significant help from the other players, and your number of rings is just a function of how good your organization was.
It's totally senseless to blame the best player on the runner-up for losing the ring, while giving the 2nd-best player on the winner all the credit.
MVPs say something big about the player every time. Finals MVPs say something big about the player most of the time. Rings say way more about the team than the player.
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People count Kobe's first ring all the time, when he averaged 15-3-3 on 37% shooting in the Finals and didn't even average 20ppg in the regular season. You could have had Nick Van Exel starting in his place and the would have won the same ring.
People like you lessen Kobe's 2nd and 3rd ring all the time. Because he didn't win MVP. He put up ~27-5-5 against the Nets but who cares because he didn't win MVP. He put up ~25-8-6 against Indiana.
Outside of rebound totals (and Kobe is not a post player obv) Those numbers hover right around what the average NBA Finals MVP winner puts up on a year to year basis. Kobe put up finals MVP level stats but because he was paired with Shaq and did not win finals MVP, they don't count? Andre Igouldala's MVP is worth more than Kobe's 2nd/3rd because he won MVP and Kobe didn't?
But his rings don't count because it's senseless to give the 2nd best player (on winning team) credit while blaming best player (on losing team) for losing... Who on the Nets out performed Kobe on an individual level in the finals?
Can't make up arbitrary rules and act like they are set in stone. There are clear holes in the "if you don't win finals mvp, it doesn't count" argument.
xXOGLEGENDXx
Veteran
I'm probably the biggest Kobe fan/stan you will ever meet, but I'll be the first to say he fukked himself up.
This nikka could be 40 years old averaging 3 points a game and if the front office asks him to take a pay cut to bring stars to the team he'd be like
.
Kobe is by far a better and more legendary player, but Tim's overall career is better and has lasted longer.
Kobe should have more MVPs though. Nikka was unstoppable from like 05-07, but that rape case was still pretty fresh and the league was like
so they gave it to Steve fukkin Nash..... twice 
.
That '08 MVP was just something they had to do before time ran out. Everybody knows CP3 should have had that.
And the Lakers should have won that series against Detroit. And Spurs should have won in '13. Both would have 6.
This nikka could be 40 years old averaging 3 points a game and if the front office asks him to take a pay cut to bring stars to the team he'd be like
.Kobe is by far a better and more legendary player, but Tim's overall career is better and has lasted longer.
Kobe should have more MVPs though. Nikka was unstoppable from like 05-07, but that rape case was still pretty fresh and the league was like
so they gave it to Steve fukkin Nash..... twice .That '08 MVP was just something they had to do before time ran out. Everybody knows CP3 should have had that.
And the Lakers should have won that series against Detroit. And Spurs should have won in '13. Both would have 6.
You lame nikkas try so hard to put Duncan over Kobe.
Stop it. Coli literally the only place where Duncan is above Kobe
Stop it. Coli literally the only place where Duncan is above Kobe
It's amazing how maturity works. Jordan tormented my Knicks like no other... I remember the night I heard his pops was found dead on the highway, a junior high me was on some: "Why couldn't that be MJ instead??"
You're misremembering - he put up 15-4-4 (on 37% shooting, 41% TS%) against Indiana.
Stands to be mentioned that Reggie (24-3-4 on 59% TS%) and Jalen (23-5-3 on 56% TS%) were consistently abusing him too.
Kobe finished with an ORtg of 96 and a DRtg of 116 for the series. The Lakers were legit getting outscored by that much when Kobe was on the floor.
You must have meant Philly?
Kobe did put up 25-8-6 there, but you left out that he did it on 41% shooting.
That entire team revolved around Shaq. Philly's entire defensive strategy revolved around Shaq. The Laker's defense revolved around Shaq. The series revolved around Shaq outside of the moments when Iverson took over (whom even young Kobe couldn't guard). The big guy was a ridiculous 33-16-5 on 57% shooting plus 3.5 blocks/game...that series was all him.
Shaq had an offensive/defensive rating of 115 to 101 for the series....while Kobe was 104 to 103.
Kobe did put up good numbers against the Nets (Kittles and Van Horn just weren't at his level)....but the Nets were horrendously overmatched by Shaq's domination (36-12-4 on 60% shooting with 3 blocks/game), which once again determined the outcome on both ends.
I said that Finals MVP means something MOST of the time, not all the time. Obviously Igoudala's is one of the exceptions. I didn't say there was any arbitrary rule set in stone. But Kobe was NEVER the most important player on the court during the Shaq run, and never had the slightest prayer of getting those MVP's awarded to him.
Most years the MVP is given to the player on the winning team whom the series most revolves around. Wade put up better numbers in 2011-2013 than Kobe put up in 2000-2002, but no one credits Wade with those Finals and says, "Wade is better than Lebron because he has more championships" or "Wade is now on the same level as Bird", because everyone who had a clue knew that every one of those series revolved around Lebron, no matter what the point totals were. Even if the Heat had won in 2011 and Wade had gotten MVP, it would have only been because the Mavs focused all their defensive planning (by their own admission) around limiting Lebron and letting Wade get his.
That's what "Most Valuable Player" really means. It's not just about putting up "MVP stats", as if 25ppg on 40% shooting is really MVP-worthy anyway. It's about being the most important player on the court and being the most important factor in actually winning the thing. And Kobe was never that as long as Shaq was on the same court as him.
And Jason Kidd averaged 21-7-10 on 44% shooting with 2 steals and a block in the Finals. You could argue that he was more important in the series than Kobe was - a team starting Kittles, van Horn, Martin, and MacCulloch definitely isn't sniffing the Finals without him. But that's not what I was arguing anyway - what I was saying is that you can't automatically credit the #2 guy on the winner one year while blaming the #1 guy in other years. Kobe's 2000 Finals performance was worse than anything Lebron's ever done in 6 Finals trips, but Kobestans still "count" that ring as meaning something for Kobe's legacy while "counting" Lebron's losses as if they hurt him. Lebron did everything better as an NBA player in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 than Kobe did in most of his Finals trips. So the idea of 3 of Kobe's Finals trips being more significant for individual mythology than Lebron's run because Shaq led the Lakers to victory just doesn't make any sense at all. No one seriously says that Pippen was better than Bird.
Kobe should have more MVPs though. Nikka was unstoppable from like 05-07, but that rape case was still pretty fresh and the league was like
That '08 MVP was just something they had to do before time ran out. Everybody knows CP3 should have had that.
And the Lakers should have won that series against Detroit. And Spurs should have won in '13. Both would have 6.
Ya'all delusional as hell. In 2005 Kobe missed 16 games while averaging 27ppg on 43% shooting for an absolute shyt team that won 33 games. He didn't get ONE vote for MVP, not one. No one wins MVP in that scenario no matter who they are or what they did. Nash stole that MVP, but he stole it from Shaq, not Kobe.
2006 was one of the toughest voting years ever. You had Nash playing better than his MVP year, Kobe putting up 35ppg on 27 shots, Lebron having his breakout season (31-7-7 on 48% shooting for a 50-win team)....it could have gone to any of them.
2007 is you getting delusional again. That was Dirk's MVP by a mile - he put up 25-9-3 on 50/42/90 shooting splits for a team that won 67 games even though their 2nd-best player was Josh Howard. Kobe only got TWO first-place votes. You can't give Kobe 2007 (32-6-5 on 46% shooting for a 42-win team) without saying that Lebron deserved 2008 (30-8-7 on 48% shooting for a 45-win team).
2008 was CP3. I'm with you there. Clearly a "Career Achievement Award" for Kobe.
Why Kobe stans always on Duncan dikk
That's the real question
That's the real question
You live in Kobestan, don't you?
Probably don't even know what "literally" means, eh?
ESPN has Duncan #8, Kobe #12.
Even back in 2011, SLAM already had Duncan #8, Kobe #10. And Duncan's added to his legacy since then, while Kobe's only added embarrassment.
Eddie Johnson for HoopsHype has Duncan in the top-ten, Kobe on the outside looking in
Jack McCallum of Sports Illustrated (part of the original top-50 players selection committee) put Duncan #10, Kobe #12
cacs
You live in Kobestan, don't you?
Probably don't even know what "literally" means, eh?
ESPN has Duncan #8, Kobe #12.
Even back in 2011, SLAM already had Duncan #8, Kobe #10. And Duncan's added to his legacy since then, while Kobe's only added embarrassment.
Eddie Johnson for HoopsHype has Duncan in the top-ten, Kobe on the outside looking in
Jack McCallum of Sports Illustrated (part of the original top-50 players selection committee) put Duncan #10, Kobe #12
Kobe is a hood nikka, Duncan a uncle tom, of course he'll get rated higher by whites
DIMES
Retired troll
What
DIMES
Retired troll
You live in Kobestan, don't you?
Probably don't even know what "literally" means, eh?
ESPN has Duncan #8, Kobe #12.
Even back in 2011, SLAM already had Duncan #8, Kobe #10. And Duncan's added to his legacy since then, while Kobe's only added embarrassment.
Eddie Johnson for HoopsHype has Duncan in the top-ten, Kobe on the outside looking in
Jack McCallum of Sports Illustrated (part of the original top-50 players selection committee) put Duncan #10, Kobe #12
Duncan has never taken over in a single game in the last 10-11 years. Except that one game 6 lol
Just consistently stiff post hooks with maybe a sprinkle of 30 points of open bank shots,once in a blue moon since 2007
Disturbingly overrated.
Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson all just flat out better. David Robinson is literally a better version of tim duncan.
Nothing much changes in the spurs success after 07 if you replace Timmy with a young Chris bosh, Dwight Howard. If we're being honest
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cacs
Kobe is a hood nikka, Duncan a uncle tom, of course he'll get rated higher by whites
Eddie Johnson is a cac?
Kobe grew up as the son of an NBA baller and then in Italy of all places working out with professional teams in Europe, then came back to upper-class Philly and attended one of the top high schools in the entire country. He was hanging out with NBA ballers all the time, took Brandy to the prom, and his classes were full of rich White kids.
But on the Coli, he's a "hood nikka".
And Duncan's background don't have shyt to do with the rankings - Russell, Lebron, Oscar all actually came from real neighborhoods, and they're all ranked ahead of Kobe too
You can't make this up.
Work on your math young Kobestan. If you're not counting 2007 then you only got 8 years, not "10-11".
And the claim was bullshyt anyway - forget the whole 8 years which you somehow count as 10-11. Let's ONLY look at the playoffs from the last three seasons, after his athletic decline had clearly begun.
2013: "Just ignore 30 and 17 in a deciding Game 6 in the Finals that they only lost because Pop took him out on the wrong possession. (Duncan was +16 that game.) Just ignore that Duncan would have easily been Finals MVP if it hadn't been for that rebound and three."
2014: Sets the tone with a 27 and 9 performance in the first game of the playoffs against a tough Dallas team, pours in 27 against OKC in one win and comes a few rebounds away from a 20-20 in another, but it doesn't count as "taking the game over" somehow. He sprinkles in 20 and 10 games through the whole playoffs on the way averaging 15 and 10 on 57% shooting in a dominant NBA Finals....but in Kobestan you only "take the game over" by taking a bunch of ill-advised jump shots, and actually controlling the flow of the game on both ends of the court isn't considered meaningful.
2015: Lose to the Clips in 7 in their only series, but that includes a 27 and 11 game, a 26 and 9 game, and a 22 and 14 game.
If you had been alive for Magic Johnson, Bill Walton, and Bill Russell, you would have considered them "role players" too, because they just didn't take enough shots for your liking. They were too busy winning.
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Nothing much changes in the lakers success after '10 if you replace Kobe with a young Marco Bellinelli, Sasha Vujacic. If we're being honest.
So what you're saying is, "If you take out the first decade of Duncan's career where he won 4 titles, 3 Finals MVPs, and 2 regular season MVPs....then really in the "lesser" half of his career nothing much changes if you replace him with Howard (5 consecutive 1st-team All-NBA nods) or Bosh (11 straight all-star appearances and counting), if you're being honest."
When your rip on the guy is that AFTER dominating for almost a decade, he was only "one of the top big men in the league" for the next decade.....
(Not that you're even right. The Spurs' offense thrives on ball movement, and Duncan is at the center of that, which is why he averaged 3 assists/game those years. Neither Bosh and certainly not Howard have those kind of chops, and it would have set back their whole offense. And Bosh isn't remotely as good a defender as even old Duncan. Not to mention that neither one is living up to his leadership role and consistency on the team, and mentoring young Kawhi.)
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cacs
Kobe is a hood nikka, Duncan a uncle tom, of course he'll get rated higher by whites
youre showing your age breh.
kobe came into the league as the corporate champion that the league & white people got behind and promoted to the death(before he even earned a starting spot on the lakers).
he wasn't getting love in the hood. black people viewed HIM as an uncle tom. he gets hood love now from young buls that got into basketball in the mid-00s & later. and hes not from the hood. hes not even from philly.
hes from lower merion & Italy.
google up jellybean Bryant. that's his dad.
when LeBron left Cleveland, the Cavs died
when Shaq left Orlando, the Magic died
when Hakeem left Houston, the Rockets died
when Jordan left Chicago, the Bulls died
when Kobe fell off, the Lakers died
when Tim fell off, the Spurs got better
Duncan is good, but he was product of system
the moment kobe leaves, the lakers will instantly get better.
hes the reason that the team is chit right now.
a baby shaq and a post-prime shaq.
great examples breh.
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