The Jokic top 10 All-time Conversations will be uncomfortable

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i need to see a player repeat at least once before you start putting them in goat convos. 3peating is the hardest thing you can do in all sports. Only 1 person did it twice.
Players don't repeat.
Teams repeat.

I know you hate this kind of response but it's the truth. We've seen so many great teams/dynasties have their championship runs saved by great games or great shots by teammates who were not superstars or leaders.

How can we honestly sit here and act like Kerr and Paxson weren't critical to 2 Bulls championships? Or that Allen wasn't critical to Lebron/Wade's championships? And countless other examples.

A missed shot or bad game by some "nobody" and these so-called GOATs wouldn't have the resumes that they have.
 
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Players don't repeat.
Teams repeat.

I know you hate this kind of response but it's the truth. We've seen so many great teams/dynasties have their championship runs saved by great games or great shots by teammates who were not superstars or leaders.

How can we honestly sit here and act like Kerr and Paxson weren't critical to 2 Bulls championships? Or that Allen wasn't critical to Lebron/Wade's championships? And countless other examples.

A missed shot or bad game by some "nobody" and these so-called GOATs wouldn't have the resumes that they have.
finally someone with some sense....:salute:

too many so-called fans act like the stars are out there by themselves.....
why people dont understand that this is a team-sport baffles me
 

Damnshow

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When Jokic temmates do well, it's because he's a top 10 player of all time genius who makes anyone better.

When Jokic temmates don't do well, it's all his teammates fault for being trash and Jokic is never wrong.

That type of stanning I've seen on realgm before, but apparently its creeping up on this site as well. Weren't Clippers the first 50+ win team that Denver beat in the playoffs? Top 10 of all time, lol
 

murksiderock

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When Jokic temmates do well, it's because he's a top 10 player of all time genius who makes anyone better.

When Jokic temmates don't do well, it's all his teammates fault for being trash and Jokic is never wrong.

That type of stanning I've seen on realgm before, but apparently its creeping up on this site as well. Weren't Clippers the first 50+ win team that Denver beat in the playoffs? Top 10 of all time, lol
Someone posted this on the Simmons/Russillo YouTube coverage of the game:

So Jokic went 6-16, 7-22, 8-25, in this series, in addition to taking just nine shots in a win or go home game, LOST, and he gets protected by the media.

He allowed himself to get guarded like Dirk was guarded by the "We Believe" Warriors in 2007, and Simmons throws his hands up and says, "what more could the guy do"?

I thought Jokic was a supercomputer? I thought he was someone we've never seen in the history of basketball? I thought he was the greatest offensive player ever? The media glazing of players like Jokic and Luka is both predictable and insufferable.


.......

And you know what, the spirit of that post is correct. It doesn't mean he's not who we thought he was---he's proven that he is, many times---but you can call him out for having a mid series. His "mid" is a higher bar than everyone else's, but this isn't anywhere near one of his best performances, even accounting for the roster deficiencies and weaknesses around him...

There were times he looked worn down, in a Round TWO series, in a way we haven't seen much of prior besides last year vs Minny. There was a lot of sloppiness, a lot of turnovers, moments of bad shot taking, a lot of misses, and moments of passivity...

This Thunder team showed they could be had, and if Denver lost with Jokic going down with a typical Jokic performance, the coverage surrounding him would be understandable. But this wasnt the case...

Giannis didn't get this same grace to anywhere near this extent when he sucked in the playoffs. LeBron was the best player in the NBA for a long time and was in many series where he had the inferior team and in the rare occasions he lost, the coverage of him was not at all this generous and we know it...

Harden has gotten shyt for years for seemingly being fatigued in the playoffs and eviscerated for poor performances. Luka carried a mid team to a Finals last year and his manner of sloppy play and apparent fatigue were outright criticized, and should've been...

Examples abound but the way people are talking about Jokic is CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY biased with a design to seemingly shield him. What standard exactly are we holding him to?

Because the standard people have shifted to, is a Top 10 player of All-Time standard. And if that's the case, then keep it real, tall about how he was failed by deficiencies around him----->but if he wasn't his best self, he has to wear some accountability here...

Tell me the current, active player who would be spoken of this lovely, with only 9 shots in a G7, and the subpar performances he had throughout this series? We know mf's wouldn't be this kind on Steph. Wouldn't be this kind on any vet even if they were in the exact same situation as Jokic...
 

murksiderock

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I'll say this much:

It's been shown two years straight now, that if you have at least two good bigs, you can knock Jokic off his normal level of greatness and best his team, because the Denver Nuggets cannot win with mediocre Nuggets performances 🤣 they can't do it...

Last year the Wolves had Towns, Gobert, and Reid taking turns on him. This year, Chet and Hartenstein...

Jokic is already tracking towards GOAT10 status, even though I don't think he's there yet, but if he solves this kryptonite going forward; if he's able to elevate beyond the multi-big defenders only a handful of teams have for him, it'll go a llooonnngggg way to strengthening his case...
 
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1 Jordan
2 James
3 Abdul-Jabbar
4 Johnson
5 Duncan
6 Bryant
7 Curry
8 O'Neal
9 Bird
10 Olajuwon
11 Jokic
12 Chamberlain
13 Durant
14 Antetokoumpo
15 Russell

That's my personal list. Cant really debate the top 5 unless you flip Duncan and Bryant in my opinion

One more ring and Jokic jumps up to 9 or 10 in my opinion. 2 more rings and he's #8. 4 rings...i'd hate to say it but he passes Curry :wow:

I dont care much for the players who did their work when it was only 8 teams.
Feel like Dirk belongs over KD and Giannis.
 

fifth column

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That's such an arbitrary metric, the "3peat". So is Russell the GOAT to you? Because if you are holding that standard with consistency, only one guy won 8 straight titles, which nearly triples the 3peat---->and he didn't take no break in between any of those 8 rings to "reset"...

Championships matter, whether they come back to back is a personal metric but isn't something that matters in honest basketball analysis. Wilt never went back to back and he was the GOAT to plenty of people for many years. Ditto for Bird...

Duncan has never really been considered in the conversation for THE best player ever, but you could make the argument for him. And he never went back to back...
This doesn’t pass the smell test, greatness is measured by impact. The greatest impact a star player can have is leading their team to chips.

At the end of the day all the top tier superstars are the best individual basketball players in some capacity but what separates them is the impact within a team sport.

It’s nonsensical to compare eras, skills and styles but we can gauge a superstar’s greatness by how impactful they were in leading championship wins regardless of era.
 

fifth column

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Players don't repeat.
Teams repeat.


I know you hate this kind of response but it's the truth. We've seen so many great teams/dynasties have their championship runs saved by great games or great shots by teammates who were not superstars or leaders.

How can we honestly sit here and act like Kerr and Paxson weren't critical to 2 Bulls championships? Or that Allen wasn't critical to Lebron/Wade's championships? And countless other examples.

A missed shot or bad game by some "nobody" and these so-called GOATs wouldn't have the resumes that they have.
@murksiderock that’s why LeBron is not a dynasty on to himself
 

murksiderock

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This doesn’t pass the smell test, greatness is measured by impact. The greatest impact a star player can have is leading their team to chips.

At the end of the day all the top tier superstars are the best individual basketball players in some capacity but what separates them is the impact within a team sport.

It’s nonsensical to compare eras, skills and styles but we can gauge a superstar’s greatness by how impactful they were in leading championship wins regardless of era.
Your above quote is maybe the realest quote you've ever had 🤣

I'm fine with people saying they don't think of LeBron as a 1-man dynasty, but if one feels that way, stay consistent and when making the comp to other players, none of that "well this guy 3peated" or shyt like that. Because the way LeBron won at his peak, was absolutely dynastic. Its an achievement no All-Timer has accomplished apart from one team and coach...

So if saying he was a dynasty unto himself is too strong for some people, fine. But if we comparing how people won, its fair to point out he needed no system, no particular coach, no specific #2. He's the only guy who won at a dynastic level irrespective of these variables...

Everybody else you tie back to one #2, one coach, one system and philosophy of play. He's literally the only All-Timer at that level that we can say wasn't a system player, and it's a fair legacy point...

Your above quote though, I agree with 100% and have said such on here many, many times. Grade these guys by what they were in their era. Russell's run of 8 straight is a unique achievement that should be mentioned anytime his name is brought up, but it should always be understood it happened within the context of that era....

I only mentioned Russell because someone said "only one guy 3peated twice". This was an example of sliding scale of standards to me, because if two 3peats truly matter to you, one guy went above and beyond whatever standard that is supposed to be, and won 8 championships consecutively...

But I've mentioned in years past that much of Basketball Culture has inconsistent standards that they measure players by. If "winning" is the standard, Michael Jordan didn't win the most championships, nor did he go on the greatest run of title dominance in an era. Sometimes people come with the glass house of, "well, look at the era he played in", but everybody's era can be shytted on if one chooses to...

Long story short what I'm saying is I agree with, a guy's achievements and GOATness should be contextualized in tge era he played in. If you value his era more, that's fine, I don't police what era of basketball someone identifies most with. But, how someone won in their era, isn't an indicator they are a better player thab how someone who didn't play in that era is. You can tell me you prefer a guy but you can't tell me a guy is a greater player than someone he never played against, because of how he won in his era...

How you win in your era absolutely establishes a bar over guys you did play against, though!
@murksiderock that’s why LeBron is not a dynasty on to himself
 
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Arguable i guess but then too got multiple mvps or scoring titles and have bigger impacts on defense

Dirk has crazy impact though being one of the first real stretch 4s
Trudat.

Feel like Giannis and Joker don't quite belong because just about any Top 10/Top 12 list has all guys with 2 or more rings.

Dirk is in the same boat, like a tier down but he's done playing while the other two can still add to their legacy.

All of em are Top 20.
 

Long Live The Kane

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Your above quote is maybe the realest quote you've ever had 🤣

I'm fine with people saying they don't think of LeBron as a 1-man dynasty, but if one feels that way, stay consistent and when making the comp to other players, none of that "well this guy 3peated" or shyt like that. Because the way LeBron won at his peak, was absolutely dynastic. Its an achievement no All-Timer has accomplished apart from one team and coach...

So if saying he was a dynasty unto himself is too strong for some people, fine. But if we comparing how people won, its fair to point out he needed no system, no particular coach, no specific #2. He's the only guy who won at a dynastic level irrespective of these variables...

Everybody else you tie back to one #2, one coach, one system and philosophy of play. He's literally the only All-Timer at that level that we can say wasn't a system player, and it's a fair legacy point...

Your above quote though, I agree with 100% and have said such on here many, many times. Grade these guys by what they were in their era. Russell's run of 8 straight is a unique achievement that should be mentioned anytime his name is brought up, but it should always be understood it happened within the context of that era....

I only mentioned Russell because someone said "only one guy 3peated twice". This was an example of sliding scale of standards to me, because if two 3peats truly matter to you, one guy went above and beyond whatever standard that is supposed to be, and won 8 championships consecutively...

But I've mentioned in years past that much of Basketball Culture has inconsistent standards that they measure players by. If "winning" is the standard, Michael Jordan didn't win the most championships, nor did he go on the greatest run of title dominance in an era. Sometimes people come with the glass house of, "well, look at the era he played in", but everybody's era can be shytted on if one chooses to...

Long story short what I'm saying is I agree with, a guy's achievements and GOATness should be contextualized in tge era he played in. If you value his era more, that's fine, I don't police what era of basketball someone identifies most with. But, how someone won in their era, isn't an indicator they are a better player thab how someone who didn't play in that era is. You can tell me you prefer a guy but you can't tell me a guy is a greater player than someone he never played against, because of how he won in his era...

How you win in your era absolutely establishes a bar over guys you did play against, though!

This is probably my least favorite of your Lebron narratives…this idea that him shrewdly jumping from team to team once the otherwise natural winning window of his team had closed cause all the championship capital had been expended, swapping out a revolving roster of fresh All NBA co-stars, trade and cap space, should give him extra brownie points :mjlol: …..it’s a fukking short cut. Building a TRUE dynasty with one franchise is more difficult and more of a testament to greatness than carpetbagging across the league every couple of seasons when things, naturally get tough after sustained runs
 

murksiderock

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This is probably my least favorite of your Lebron narratives…this idea that him shrewdly jumping from team to team once the otherwise natural winning window of his team had closed cause all the championship capital had been expended, swapping out a revolving roster of fresh All NBA co-stars, trade and cap space, should give him extra brownie points :mjlol: …..it’s a fukking short cut. Building a TRUE dynasty with one franchise is more difficult and more of a testament to greatness than carpetbagging across the league every couple of seasons when things, naturally get tough after sustained runs
That's your standard, and that's fair. Show me a period in NBA history that people cared about superstars going to different teams, until LeBron did it...
 

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That's your standard, and that's fair. Show me a period in NBA history that people cared about superstars going to different teams, until LeBron did it...
LeBron didn’t just go to different teams though instead he methodically created super teams to avoid competition and win easy chips. Didn’t quite go as planned so
 
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