"When God was dead for 3 days and 3 nights who was controlling the Universe?" - Ahmed Deedat

[ReadOneBookAWeek]

I challenge you to find me any scripture from anywhere or any surah from the Quran where Messiah is used to refer to anyone else but Jesus. Also find me a single surah in the Quran where messiah is used in any context other then when directly referring to Jesus. Also find me any scripture or Surah where Christ is used to refer to anyone else but Jesus.

The word Messiah is used 11 times in the Quran, and all 11 times it is referring to Jesus. No other prophet is called Messiah. This idea that prophets were called Messiah is based on what evidence.

Messiah is a Hebrew word not Arabic and means Deliverer. Judges and prophets in the OT were referred to as messiah's at times. Never read the Quran I just know the OT is what their religion is based off and that's where I get my info from. The root of all 3 Faith's.

 

[JOHN.KOOL]

Messiah is a Hebrew word not Arabic and means Deliverer. Judges and prophets in the OT were referred to as messiah's at times. Never read the Quran I just know the OT is what their religion is based off and that's where I get my info from. The root of all 3 Faith's.

You would also be aware then that in the OT there is a difference between messiah and THE MESSIAH, which the prophets spoke of and all were waiting for. The Quran calls Jesus the messiah and does not ever give that title to anyone else, not any other prophet in the Quran is called messiah.

So when i said the Quran calls Jesus the messiah and you responded saying messiah is essentially a blanket term for prophet, there is no Quranic basis for that argument considering the Quran is careful in only using the title 'messiah' and 'the messiah' in reference to Jesus.

 

[ReadOneBookAWeek]

You would also be aware then that in the OT there is a difference between messiah and THE MESSIAH, which the prophets spoke of and all were waiting for. The Quran calls Jesus the messiah and does not ever give that title to anyone else, not any other prophet in the Quran is called messiah.

So when i said the Quran calls Jesus the messiah and you responded saying messiah is a essentially a blanket term for prophet, there is no Quranic basis for that argument considering the Quran is careful in only using the title 'messiah' and 'the messiah' in reference to Jesus.

I already noted the difference in the use of messiah. Muslims deny Christ and do not consider him the sacrifice for sins. They do not recognize Christ as Lord and savior.

Islam is nothing but a heresy created by Muhammad & Co centuries after Christ anyway so I'm not going to put muh energy into debating their false beliefs

 

[Koichos]

Messiah is a Hebrew word not Arabic and means Deliverer. Judges and prophets in the OT were referred to as messiah's at times. Never read the Quran I just know the OT is what their religion is based off and that's where I get my info from. The root of all 3 Faith's.

'Messiah' is the English translation of the Hebrew "Moshiach" or משיח.

The word "Moshiach" (משיח) appears in the Tenach 38 times. Not ONCE does it refer to The Messiah, the scion of the house of David. משיח simply means 'anointed'. David was a messiah (anointed) for his time. So, too, King Saul, whom David succeeded. Even Cyrus of Persia, a gentile, is referred to as a messiah.

"..כה־אמר יהוה למשיחו לכורש—Koh Amar Hashem l'Meshicho l'Koresh..—Thus said Hashem to His anointed one, to Cyrus.. (Isa. 45:1)."​

This is similar to the misconception that 'Hebrew' is a Hebrew word; when in fact 'Hebrew' is the English derivation of the Hebrew "Ivri" or עברי (meaning literally 'to cross over', referring to the fact that Abraham crossed over from polytheism to the idea of one G-d and monotheism), which itself comes from "Ever/Eber" or עבר, the great-grandson of Shem. Abraham is thus is called "Avram ha'Ivri" אברם העברי (Abram the Hebrew) (Gen. 14:13) due to the monotheistic teachings of G-d he learned from "Ever" עבר.

 

[Chelsea Bridge]

Read my post on the first page. You fail to understand what the term son of God means.

It means the SON of GOD lol.

Jesus is NOT GOD

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Christian beliefs vary on the Trinity, alot don't believe in the Trinity. I favor the Arian doctrine that was most popular before the Council of Nicea decided to declare it blasphemy in favor of Catholicism.

They didn't declare it blasphemy in favor of Catholicism.

That's an anachronistic telling of history disproven by actual records from the Council itself.

It was declared 'heretical' because it posited the 'Son' having a 'beginning', and so, NOT eternal in the past in contrast to the NT teaching backed by the OT.​

 

[God Almighty]

I killed him and he came back like roaches.

 

[JamalfromtheDot]

Breh, since MANY Muslims have told me this directly you can't blame this one on Christians.



That's from Sura 5 of the Koran. He's clearly critiquing the trinity ("third of three") and then dismisses the divinity of Jesus and Mary as if the misunderstanding is equivalent.



That's later in Sura 5, also a clear reference to the Trinity, "my mother and me as deities besides Allah", also clearly confusing Mary as one of the Trinity.

You know how many Islamic verses identify the Holy Spirit as the third member of the Trinity? Exactly zero.

You just have to take this L. It's not like it's the only time the Koran confuses Christian theology either.

Once again everyone knows mariolatry exists. Saying that Christians deify Mary is not confusing the trinity unless it says she is a part of the TRINITY. Neither of the quotes you brought up claim that Mary was a part of the trinity. The first quote you actually brought addresses the deification of Mary SEPERATELY right before. Taking others as deities besides Allah doesn't mean it's referring to the trinity, as we all know mariolatry is alive and well to this day.

 

[JOHN.KOOL]

It means the SON of GOD lol.

Jesus is NOT GOD

So you didn't read my post on the first page then? Jesus Christ being God in the flesh is the whole point of Christianity.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Whoever the Moses character represents when "he" is writing the 5 books you can see that he is borrowing from previous writings\scripture and also grafting Persian ideas into the writings. The very evidence for this is in Genesis first 3 books. Moses took the Egyptian cosmogony, then in the second chapter he injects persian ideas of: the first man, man naming the animals, and women being created after man. He also introduces the idea of the serpent (ashmogh).

Moses is also writing to provide military reconnaissance for an invasion. This is why he mentions the rivers that flow in certain lands, and the resources and minerals that are to be found there.

Look into Moses the Persian. And how his chief reform was the introduction of the everburning fire, and priest to tend to the fire. In their scripture they even refer to their god as an Everlasting flame. And they refer to their Aramaic lettering system as the Fire Letters. The very first letter of which is ALEPH which is an allusion to both the flame and the bull\calf. Now, go check out Mazdaism-Zoroastrianism Perso-Irani traditions and their bulls, fire temples, priests and everlasting flames.

Diving further into Persi\Farsi-Irani traditions you will also discover the reliance on dreams and dream interpretations.

In Moses narrative, Jospeh rises to power thru his abilities to interpret dreams. Joseph runs a scheme in Egypt that allows for him (and his administration which consist of his brethren) to take over control of the food supply an land of Egypt and reduce the people of Egypt to debt slavery. A champion arose who recognized the scheme and suppressed the power of Joseph and his administration, and removed them from power.

This type of thinking was hot for a minute......in the late-19th/early-20th Century. It was called 'Panbabylonianism' and it died a relatively quick death because people tended to read too much into the narratives and note the similarities rather than the glaring differences. It was largely falsified and wholly abandoned by serious archeaologists/historians/scholars involved with Ancient Near Eastern cultures.

It actually started with this guy....

Hugo Winckler - Wikipedia
​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Once again everyone knows mariolatry exists. Saying that Christians deify Mary is not confusing the trinity unless it says she is a part of the TRINITY. Neither of the quotes you brought up claim that Mary was a part of the trinity. The first quote you actually brought addresses the deification of Mary SEPERATELY right before. Taking others as deities besides Allah doesn't mean it's referring to the trinity, as we all know mariolatry is alive and well to this day.

Here's the problem: If Allah wrote the Book, didn't he know how to accurately describe what it was that Christians actually believed regarding the doctrine he was arguing against?​

 

[JOHN.KOOL]

I already noted the difference in the use of messiah. Muslims deny Christ and do not consider him the sacrifice for sins. They do not recognize Christ as Lord and savior.

Islam is nothing but a heresy created by Muhammad & Co centuries after Christ anyway so I'm not going to put muh energy into debating their false beliefs

I agree with the bold except in one thing, Muhammad & Co were not responsible for its creation. There is a verse in the bible which states that if an angel come to you with a message different then the one you have already received do not believe him. I find that warning interesting, when you consider things like the origins of the Quran, the story goes an angel claiming to be the angel Gabriel appeared to Muhammad and was responsible for dictating the Quran to him. I believe this event was indeed true.

What if an angel did really appear to Muhammad and dictate him the Quran as the story goes, but what if it wasn't actually the angel Gabriel, what if it was a fallen angel. Once you understand biblical narrative and you investigate the Quran based on the idea that the angel that appeared to Muhammad may have been a fallen angel, then all the differences and alterations of the story beginning at creation you see in the Quran when compared with the bible/torah, makes perfect sense why those alterations could have been made. It also provides another interesting reason why that angel appeared to Muhammad, a man who allegedly couldn't read or write, so therefore if true couldn't have ever read the bible or torah.

 

[JamalfromtheDot]

Here's the problem: If Allah wrote the Book, didn't he know how to accurately describe what it was that Christians actually believed regarding the doctrine he was arguing against?​

Lol Christians believe in Mariolatry and other Christians even accuse each other of believing it. There's no disputing mariolatry exists within Christianity, and the Quran never says Mary was a part of the Trinity

 

[Chelsea Bridge]

So you didn't read my post on the first page then? Jesus Christ being God in the flesh is the whole point of Christianity.

Huh?

If that’s so then what does 1 Corinthians 15 verse 24-28 mean?

 

[IVS]

You're the one with the negative energy on the subject though. Isn't spirituality about peace, patience, virtue, discipline, integrity & sacrifice?

If you know a better way you should be an example of it right? What do you believe in? Or are you just as confused as the people you're angry with?

Im so in love with reality that IDGAF about a spirituality or a spiritual world. Im focused on Earth, not Heaven or a diety that rules it, nor a hell and vulcanic fires of a so called devil.

Shoutout to Jesus, if he was real he was a reformer for the religion of his people. And his death did rid them of the bloody temple sacrifices of animals that had become a vice and was being exploited by certain sects of his people.

Jesus was especially upset with the moneychangers...who you think got him knocked off? (if he was real). The Herodian dynastic family to be specific. And the Pharisees, some of whom were also actual Roman citizens (e.g. Saul/Paul the Pharisee, Roman Citizen...hmmm)

Then they hijacked his movement and called it Catholicism, and told US he died for our sins. None other the the Romans and the Pharisees had Jesus killed.

Jesus is not God though. Im not a Muslim in any form but theres no God but God.